You cannot tell, from the finished product, the speed at which it was written...

This I find to be true even in my own work: I write in sprints and staggers, but come later drafts I can't remember which parts came in a white-hot torrent and which were chiselled out word by stubborn word, and I can't tell by looking. It doesn't show, to my critical eye. Which I find fascinating...

Oh, and a profound "amen" to this entire post. I think you nailed it.

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I especially like your last paragraph. I don't understand why some people rant over what to me is merely annoying: I really want to read the next book by an author, but its not available yet. With as many books as are published every year, one ought to be able to find something interesting to read.

Cynthia

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well, quite!

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That attitude is one reason I don't participate in fandom very much. They can be very demanding of professional authors, but many who write fanfic are insulted if upheld to standards of grammar and characterization, etc.

Frankly, blogs such as yours are very useful in informing people what else goes on in the writing process, although Lois Bujold has been adamant for years that she only writes what is there to write, and people still nag at her. I just revel in the variety that all of you bring to the rest of us.

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Great post - thank you. I was frankly appalled by the comment on Robin's blog - as though she was the commentator's psychiatric patient, or something.

The 'writer as nice person' is a relatively new construct, I think, and I wonder if it comes about because we have so many more female writers these days. I'm thinking of those eccentric, ranting and frequently abusive Victorian male writers - can't name names, and don't have any hard evidence, either. They're just sort of there in my head. But the idea that writers are there to be kind to you - as opposed to shouting "You have failed to understand my GENIUS" hurling a drink over the offender and storming off - is quite a new one. I'm not saying we should go back to that, mind you. Just that there's a balance.

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Robertson Davies (Canadian writer with whom you're probably familiar, but some may not be) wrote in an essay that people who can't write should not envy writers too much, because most writers aren't very nice people.

I've found most writers to be as nice as anyone else, myself, but we're not all bland vanilla pudding, either.

I suspect the demand for writers to be totally open and accessible and friendly and supportive and pro-active in whatever causes the reader supports actually comes from the celebrations of celebrity in the media. Writers are small potatoes in the celebrity bin, by and large, but to people who want to "own" a celebrity, they may seem the right scale...and we don't have staff to protect us from the worst. Someone may write Peter Jackson to tell him how to make movies and what to make next, but he probably has at least one secretary screening the mail. Starlets and writers are popularly supposed to "owe" fans. It's different (I think--I could be wrong) with painters, sculptors, and classical composers. One of my favorite artists (Carroll Collier, mostly landscapes, good work with brush and knife both)) may have people telling him what to paint next and what he should've done in the lower right corner ("Don't you realize it's a cliche to use the knife for painting stones?")of a painting--but I rather doubt it because painters have maintained the reputation of throwing things and are expected to be minimally polite to non-painters only at gallery shows.

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I've met, on and off line, some exceptionally nice/polite authors, some exceptionally rude ones, and a whole lot in between. Pretty much like non-writers, really. Online, there's a variety of cultures in author-blogs comment-spaces -- I adore the feel of the community that's developed around ozarque's LJ; I had to stop reading McKinley's blog, though that space apparently works for some people. Most of the others I read are in-between.

Edited at 2009-05-15 05:59 pm (UTC)

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I find myself entirely in agreement with you (not for the first time:))

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I help moderate an online forum for a webcomic. I got this job because the creators were dealing with some people with some serious entitlement issues. It's my job to step on those who get out of line: gently at first, but ultimately, they WILL get stepped on.

The funny thing is: while they can (and some in fact do!) pay to get the comic in print or pay for "extras" in the supporter's area, you can get the work (albeit delayed) for FREE.

And they still complain.

How's THAT for entitlement?

I suggest you take a piece of wood to your next Con appearance, labeled "Clue-By-4." USE IT. We didn't see nothing, Officer!

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"I've got a little list...they never will be missed..."

Someone sent me a dog biscuit in the mail...I was miffed until I realized it was labeled on the back and he was advertising something.

But the temptation to write back and say "I'm not your b*tch, brainless..." followed by words I use only in moments of extreme annoyance was *almost* overwhelming.

Really, the fierceness of old women is under-recognized. We have little to lose and (in my generation and background, anyway) a lifetime of "sweetness" and "nurturing" to expunge. I am courteous most of the time because a) I was taught to be and b) it's usually a good strategy, but make it unprofitable...well, the old bonds of Southern Ladyhood training have frayed a bit and the last strands could part at any time.

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I think you've balanced the expunging and not expunging pretty well at this point, with sweetness and nurturning confined to the Right Places. At least that's my observation.
PS. Tucker has his eye on that biscuit.

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If it entertained you, if reading my book brought you a few hours respite from problems in your life, or changed your life for the better in some way, or taught you something you then realized you'd wanted to learn, then the right response is one of gratitude.

By the way, if you haven't heard it lately from me: Thank You.

Thank you for the Paks series. If Paks hadn't happened, I might never have taken up swordfighting. I might never have gotten to a position to teach swordfighting.

Thank you.

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Oh, cool! We're twins in that...I'm doing way more with swords now than I did writing it, when I was wistfully remembering a time long ago and wishing I could get back to it...and the books themselves made that possible by attracting the people who laid an antique rapier in my hands and said "We do this...want to come play?" (Oh yes....oooooh, YES!)

I'm certainly not qualified to teach it, beyond showing absolute novices a few basic things about footwork, the main positions of guard, etc. Too much time writing; too many classes missed because of conventions, etc.

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I will double what thefile has said. Thank you for all of your wonderful stories. You have been one of my best teachers in writing for years. I loved the Paks books, the Serrano/Suiza books, the Vatta books, and your single novels (Speed of Dark is my personal favorite). I couldn't say which series I liked best, which is unusual for me in that I like fantasy a bit more than SF.

Also, thanks for sharing a little piece of your life with all of us out here in LJ land.

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As a "fan" and an aspiring writer, I find this (and the other posts you linked to) really interesting food for thought.

It reminds me of when I was skirting the edge of the Harry Potter fandom. A lot of people got up in arms with the last two books, and especially the last, when things didn't go the way they expected or wanted it to go, and I just couldn't understand it. I had my own fun theories and thoughts about the way the series might end, hopes and the like, but mostly I was just hoping the final book would be another well written installment that would leave me feeling satisfied; and for me, it did. A whole legion of so-called fans, on the other hand, pretty much exploded with rage.

Ever since then I've stuck to just privately enjoying the books myself, because I couldn't believe how others on the internet were reacting and it made me a little ashamed to be associated with them. There was definitely a huge sense of entitlement, and when things didn't turn out the way they either wanted or expected, a lot of these people turned on JKR. I saw here getting called all sorts or nasty things, and it just confuses me. These are people that still claim to be fans of her work, but have decided that because things didn't go exactly as they wanted that she was suddenly a talentless hack. I suppose I could understand if there was some large and definable dive in quality (as a dispirited fan of the TV show Heroes, I can certainly sympathize with that, although it just makes me sad for the show I loved, not ready to form a lynch mob and go after Tim Kring) but it couldn't be farther from the truth.

They felt she owed them the ending they wanted, and turned on her when all she did was write the books she meant to write. It boggles my mind, it really does.

Edited at 2009-05-15 04:54 pm (UTC)

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I think anyone who creates and shares their creation with others has the same problem, if their creation fills a "need" in their audience. Humans by nature tend to feel entitled. Face it, it's hard to overcome our innate selfishness (infants squall to let their parents know they need/want something!). Is it so surprising that some fans squall when they aren't getting what they think they need/want? It's a symptom of attachment...

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Infants are infants. Fans are (technically, and except for those under 18) adult. Seriously--overcoming our innate selfishness is one of the tasks of growing up. So is understanding boundaries (they're connected, obviously.) Other peoples' creations have filled my needs, but I have not transgressed their boundaries to hassle them if they don't do exactly what I want. I've never written Philip Glass, for instance, to tell him that I don't like his music (which I don't) and I wish he'd write more like Mozart. And as stated, I don't whine at my favorite artists to get them to paint what I want painted exactly as I want it painted.

The way I was brought up, it comes down to courtesy: understanding that other people have rights and I'm not entitled to control everyone and make them serve me. Nor are they entitled to act controlling toward me or transgress my boundaries. If they do, I make it clear where my boundaries are.

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Oh, absolutely. As you say, some fans just don't understand those boundaries because they haven't grown up enough not to feel that entitlement (the world should provide *me* with everything *I* desire...waaaaaa).

It's very unfortunate that you have to deal with it. OTOH, it does show you connect with your audience (albeit in ways you may not wish sometimes, I suppose).

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Fans are supposed to have boundaries? ;-).

grrm of whom Neil Gaiman writes wrote an excellent post on this boundaries/entitlement issue back in February on this topic: To My Detractors.

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And slowly, grumpily, sometimes walking backwards (because that's how we are) the phalanx of writers assembles..."You better watch out..."

Thanks for the link.

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I'm a fantastically slow writer. I have at least twenty-five full stories in my head and only a few of them have even the first chapter written. I'm usually writing mentally while I'm stuck at work with nothing interesting to do. When I finally get home, I'm too tired of going over the scene in my head for so many hours and I leave it on a post-it note for later.

Writing was once my weakest creative skill, but after years of trying and studying how other authors write (Vatta's War being my favorite series that gave me a lot of inspiration to get my creative gears moving--thank you!) I'm improving quite a bit.

My main creative skills are in digital painting and photography. I recall my first college art teacher (who hadn't taught me anything useful about art) had once told me to "quit art and do something (I) might be good at!" I was so furious with her because I considered my creativity one of my greatest gifts in my life.

But back to writing--I have discovered that I seem to write backwards. I start with chapter 1 and before I even finish the chapter, I end up moving it over to chapter 3 or 4 with each new chapter 1 I feel is a better start . . . Sometimes it leads me to start writing a new story that would take place before the book I was on.

I haven't had anyone harshly criticize my writing, but I have the hardest time to get anyone to sit and read what I do have. It's like pulling teeth. Even friends who offer to edit it for me, fall off the internet for months and never say a word about my writing. So I have no clue if it's good, bad, or even worth the time to read.

I've considered posting parts of what I have so far on writing communities here on LJ, but I am sometimes fearful that someone would steal it and finish writing it before I do.

I apologize if I'm rambling (or if some of this is off topic). Like the rest of my brain, my mental filter doesn't wake up until after noon . . .

Thank you again for your wonderful novels. I'm on my way to the bookstore in a few minutes to pick up the books I'm missing in the Serrano series.

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Just for reassurance: it's unlikely that anyone will steal your writing. That's a common fear, but in actual fact it rarely happens. It *is* possible that someone might want to finish a story you left unfinished, because it's driving them nuts that it's not finished. If you have a finished work, you might use that in a workshop instead of a work-in-progress, which will head off the latter possibility.

On the other hand, if people don't want to read your work...you need to find out why. One possible way to go is to ask someone to read just two pages--tell them you want to know if it grabs them and they want more, or not, and if not, can they say what the feeling is...are they bored, confused, angry, depressed...??? Many people don't want to be harsh on newer writers, especially people they know (because the person might cry or get upset) and thus just don't respond at all. You can't fix what you don't know about--you need to know WHY the people who offer to read disappear on you, so you can do something about it. It might be something simple to fix.

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That is a relief. It may take a bit of effort to let go of the paranoia. I met one author a few years back who was dreadfully afraid of her work being stolen. Actually, I think she was the one who put the worry in my mind . . . She refused to share even the most basic details of her writing.

Some of my earliest stories that I decided to discontinue and work on another story universe, one of my fans--one of my only fans, went ahead and continued writing my story for quite some time I was told. He had posted it online somewhere, but I never found it.

I have never completed any of my writing projects, except those intended to be no more than half a page long. I spend so long preparing it in my head while I'm away from the computer and I end up sidetracked by new ideas or other painting projects I wish to finish. I keep thinking "this is the one . . ." that I write through to the end, but I can get only so many chapters into it before I decide that none of it is good enough and I set it aside until I can come back to it to do a total re-write.

I think that may be because my writing style evolves part way through the project, then suddenly I can see better ways to write what I had, and it's no longer the same quality as what I can do now . . . Though that might be just a long way of saying I'm a perfectionist.

As for people reading/not reading my work . . . I've asked my audience--if I even have an audience, what can I do to make this more interesting to read; how can I solve problem X, if it even is a problem, etc. I am often met with total silence. I can't even tell if anyone is looking at it or not.

I had posted some of my works on my online art galleries, hoping to get some kind of reaction. At least I can see how many people clicked on the page. At best I might get four views, then a year and a half later I'll get my first comment which was nothing longer than one word.

I'm thinking my friends list and my current audience are not very interested in reading. If it's longer than a paragraph, I believe most of them just skip it and go for something simple.

As for people asking to read it, then disappearing; they strangely avoid anything about the topic. I've had it happen a few times and I don't know why. I'd ask about it, but it was as if the topic never existed. I felt worried why they would react like that and I eventually just drop the subject.

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Most writers are so overrun with ideas of their own, that they will go 'ooh, shiny' when they see somebody else's and then go back to the people who have already come to life for them. (Three of me wouldn't run out of ideas for a couple of years, and, alas, I keep getting new ideas.)

If you want to, send me the first ten pages of something. I can't comitt to more, but as someone who in the past dropped crits because of Life intervening, I reckon I can pay back a little.

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I'm always gushing with ideas. Very few of them go beyond a scribble on a post-it note. I still have art notes that are waiting for me to finish rendering them.

That is very generous for you and thank you for offering your time. My current project, Flight of The Grey Star, is about fourteen pages for the first chapter (on a 4.5" x 5.5" page). I can send the first ten pages, though I want to read over it a couple more times to make some adjustments first.

How would you like me to send it? I can post it on my LJ, though I mostly post friends-only at the moment, or I can email it as a word document.

Thank you again. ^__^

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I'd read the Neil Gaiman post a few days ago. While I'm not a published writer, I hope to be published some day. I know for me with two kids--one with AD/HD and the other with Childhood Apraxia of Speech and Developmental Coordination Disorder that I have to set a time of 2 hours a day to write. I have to set a schedule for house work, and I have to stick to it. I can't imagine writing any other way than I do.

I've been working at writing for about 14 years (seriously). I've written various phases of drafts on six books. I've only published a few short stories in fanzines. I'm not a short story writer at all. Nearly every short story I've written has received the comment, "Wow that would make a great novel or I'd like to see you make a book out of that."

For me, reading is half about enjoying what I read and half about learning how to write better. I think of writers as my teachers. So I try to treat my teachers with respect. The ones I don't like, I stop reading their books. The ones I do like I recommend to my friends or buy them copies of the books for their birthday.

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I don't get how some people feel entitled to have a story written the way they want, when they want. I bet if someone were to ask them how they would feel if someone said to them: Okay, I want you to do project X in timeframe Z and if you do not accomplish it in exactly the manner I deem proper, I will stand here and yell and scream at you. I am willing to bet good folding money that one of two things would happen. They would either realize what asshats they were being or they would get worse, complaining that you can't compare them to a writer because writers are magical beings that don't need to do anything other than write.

Personally, I appreciate authors that share their talents, their new worlds and their passion with me. Would I like some of them to write faster? Certainly. But to berate them because they are human beings first and authors second makes that person less of a person. I look forward to each offering with eager anticipation-like a child at Christmas. And buying that book, opening it and diving head first into it is the best thing in the world.

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Yes. Thank you. (Have you sent this to Robin? I think she would like it.)

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BRAVA.

Even this political-polemicist hack will not write to order like that. If we have something to say, we will say it; if they wish to read it, they will.

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Yup. I have said to people that as writers we have both the freedom and the obligation to tell the truth (including truth-in-fiction--the stories may be unreal, but the foundation better not be.)

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Really? (I have an attack of great shyness and it took me forever to post on her discussion board...people I admire have me flat against the wall in a corner, hiding behind the potted palm.)

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Hee. I know the feeling. I don't dare speak for her, but *I* think it's a nice post and it seems like the kind of thing that would bring capslock YESSSSSS from her. :)

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So...I tried, but the mail daemon said no, the message wouldn't go. I never fully understand the mail error message thingies, but it said "permanent error" so I'm SOL on that one.

Well, these things happen. And it's well after midnight and I have a killer headache, so I'm going to take some Excedrin and go to bed.

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How odd. I assume you're using the new email address, right? (If you don't have it, email me at unicornprincess@gmail.com and I'll give it to you.) Or I can send it for you if you like. :)

And sorry to hear about the headache. Hate those. :( Feel better!

Edited at 2009-05-16 06:00 am (UTC)

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Um...used the one given on the contact page. I'll email you. (Stupid headache. Still not gone. Grump.)

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A month or so back, discussion about GRRM's 'To My Detractors' post came up in another forum where I hang out. When I pointed out that telling a writer that you're disappointed their work is behind schedule does NOT qualify as 'constructive criticism', someone (after accusing me of trampling on people's First Amendment rights to free speech) contradicted me, declaring that it is indeed helpful for a writer to learn that their fans are disappointed.

HEADDESK!

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O.M.G. I'm sure this person also criticizes his/her children constantly, because it's going to motivate them to be Perfect. And his/her spouse and his/her friends (if he/she *has* any friends...other than masochists...)

That reveals so much ignorance of human psychology I'm amazed the person even reads fiction at all.

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The golden Rule can also be read as " do not ask of another .........."
Also a basic principle of leadership. I'm not saying that boss should be an efficient engineer/janitor/typist, although it helps if he has some inkling of the skills and time and effort involved, but the idea that if demands are made on someone: expecting others to set aside their lives for 'the job' and not realizing that the business which he controls is his creative life, which he should be prepared to allow other obligations to intrude extensively into.

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I found this blog because of Robin McKinley's blog. aiyah! Another writer whom I greatly admire writes a blog! I'll be reading regularly from now on ...

I'm just so happy to read a favorite writer's work, however often he/she might write. It's funny, ever since I was a kid, I never thought that a reader could demand a writer write more in a particular series, or write a sequel to a particular book. It just never dawned on me. A writer writes and publishes, and readers get to enjoy what was written and published. As a young bookseller, I was shocked (really!) by a woman who came into the store and started talking about why/how/when/what her favorite authors should write next. She was obviously a fan of these writers, but felt that they needed to meet her needs when she wanted them met. It really threw me for a loop back then.

As a librarian, I fielded a lot of similar kinds of complaints from fans who thought their favorite authors were "falling down on the job" by not writing sequels fast enough to suit them. But, after several tries at talking with them about their feelings of entitlement, I had to give up. They will not listen to reason, these fans. The best I could do was listen to them, let them vent, then try to steer them to something else by another author. Sometimes they'd be content to check out their favorite authors' books again and again (and again ...).

Elizabeth, I love what you've written here, and heartily agree. And I write as a fan as well as a librarian who gets to recommend your work to others. ^_^

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Personally, I'm very happy that you write and am slowly reading your books (not much time these days to read). I am VERY happy that the people that are self-important entitlement [persons] have not driven you from posting here because I find your writings here fascinating.

I'm also of the opinion that it is a GoodThing that writers aren't driven to produce what 'the fans' want because then we would be over-run with one type of book and I suspect that it wouldn't be something I would want to read. Just because something is popular with a large number of people doesn't mean that everyone will be fond of it.

Thank you for giving us a window into your world both here and via books.

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I'm glad you're enjoying the books, and since I've become a stubborn, cranky old lady (this is partly a joke and partly not) nothing will drive me from posting online whatever I feel like except the demands of Lifestuff and Bookstuff. When the Book demands it, everything else goes away; only that world exists. When Lifestuff demands it, I juggle frantically, like everyone else.

I did get the beans picked again today. Last night we had fresh green beans and scalloped potatoes for dinner. I could eat that again tonight except I'll be at choir.

E.

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Now, there's an idea. We could be your patrons in the grand 17th century mode, and you could write effusive dedications to us. I'd certainly subscribe $10 a year to each of my top five authors as help-and-encouragement (I get more fun from you guys than I do from NPR, so there you go! And I wouldn't get to dictate your product anymore than I do NPR's...)
Best wishes (and assuming you are who I think you are, I truly loved Paksennarion, Remnant Population and Speed of Dark! For various reasons.)

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